Roger doing a stand up for heroes gig in November at MSG in NYC - 2013
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope October 2013
    Check fb, Roger's left a note about an upcoming gig in NYC for Stand up For Heroes benefit at Madison Square Garden, in November. I don't know for sure if i can attend since i can't do anything until the 1st of the month, again..... Will be trying to attend but i cannot promise for this one. Peace. xxxxx

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/roger-waters-the-wall/a-note-from-roger-october-22-2013/733101443370975
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope October 2013
    How about another live stream? :)))
  • NoImSpartacus October 2013
    Where have you been for 6 months ?

    How was Amsterdam ? didn't you say you were going ?
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope October 2013
    it was Dec. 19th, so it's more like 10 months.....going on 11...i never made it to Amsterdam unfortunately..thank you for asking, what about you? :) don't remember you here from before actually...xxx
  • waveprojectwaveproject October 2013
    although it´s a delicate and emotional issue,i intend to figure out some in my view critical points about roger´s action on this subject.but before i start to express what i think and feel about it i want to ask you some fundamental questions:

    what could be the personal reasons for roger´s participation on "stand up for heroes?"

    "working with these guys is maybe the most rewarding thing i do",
    "...these are my friends" - what could roger mean with that?

    why is the event called " stand up for heroes"?



  • churchmileschurchmiles October 2013
    Because they want people to stand up for heroes. Just guessing.
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope October 2013
    yes, it's a tribute to veterans and people in the military who are or have served in wars...xxx
  • waveprojectwaveproject October 2013
    ok .thanks for your efforts to participate.seems to be a clear thing for you.

    the
    same is to me. but i would say it´s a little different if not "from the
    dark side of the moon". so let me go through my questions and start
    with the last one:

    why is the event called " stand up for heroes"?

    you
    may be quite right, churchmiles with your guessing "Because they want
    people to stand up for heroes".  no doupt that the foundation cares of employment,healthy and family contacts of the homecoming soldiers and so is doing the government´s job. but what is rather douptful  and what what should really make you think critical is the title of that show."victims of
    war crime- left alone by our government"- would be seriosly more senseful. this
    event is another warning sign of the abyss we are marching to and those
    poor broken souls are misused as "heroes" of a nation of state
    terrorism. there is no clarification, no information , no imput given of
    critical thinking at all. so what´s the sense behind it finally when there is no offer to learn from mistakes? this emotional mixture of pride and sympathy as a final result instead of giving a chance to take some responsibilty gives no reason to attend!
  • CorneliusCornelius October 2013
    Agreed, Well Said Waveproject..!
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope October 2013
    i think there's nothing wrong with a good night of musical entertainment, everyone has their causes....Roger clearly loves the heck out of the vets...xxx :)) hoping for a live stream like last time because i think i can't make this one, wish though..xxx
  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    if you have a look at the website of this foundation and invest a few minutes regarding that picture, what do you see?
    http://bobwoodrufffoundation.org/our-impact/
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    hello. call this a procrastinating a question with a question, but are you asking me? :)))
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    i see a website a logo and pics and tag slogans of sorts...xxx
  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    i am asking everybody in general here with the attempt to bring some critical thinking about the three questions above. and with the claim of receiving some background of what people may think about the participation of roger in particiular.

    naturally concerning my person, in this case as well, i put roger´s behaviour in question , moreover i have some fundamental and serious doupts about any honest reasons to make that gig with those guys.but firstly i want to wait for comments and answers before i will start to tell my points about that.

    here´s another nice pic:"they served us. now it´s our turn" served from what?
    http://bobwoodrufffoundation.org/who-we-are/
  • churchmileschurchmiles November 2013
    Your question " served from what " does not make sense. If it said ( saved ) then it would. Obviously we have labelled our armed forces with the term Heroes. Is this what you are questioning. I think maybe we are trying to give recognition when in the past we have simply expected them to do there job. I personally do not have a big HEROES sticker on my car window. Do you believe that we should not be grateful. ??? Sorry for being rude with my answer i pressumed everyone world wide had an insight into the charity stand up for heroes.
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    well a lot of ppl seem to feel that vets get short changed by the govt, so ppl like to kick in and try to pick up some of that slack, and it's called a benefit, or whatever as a result...to benefit the undersung heroes like vets..
  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    @churchmiles
    ok. iwas wrong with "to serve" but then my question may
    sound even more directly: whom did they serve?the american people? the
    audience in the show? roger and all the other artists and spaekers of
    the gig? or even the whole world to protect us all from the myth of
    terrorism?

    what really makes me feel deep doupts about the
    presentation on this website is that typical pathetic expression of
    PATRIOTISM which you can find in so many american movies (like top gun
    if you want). what is missing on that site is the simple difference between a manipulative strategy of distraction by drawing a familiar picture of proud heroes and an honest approach to help victims out of the hell of war crime, clarification included.

    so the question what really any roger waters fan here should be busy with ( preconditioned of being just a little critical thinking ) autmatically occurs:

    what is roger doing there??
  • StrayDogStrayDog November 2013
    If I’m allowed to join the discussion and slightly paraphrase the main questions of this topic as well as provide some additional grounds to base the necessity of putting them forward …

    If I’m not mistaken, Roger has stated on numerous occasions that neither major Western powers in general nor the U.S. in particular participated in a single “justified” war since WW2. And it’s very true. It’s impossible to argue that.

    At the same time, all those obviously “unjustified” wars started around the world by the U.S. alone during this period, which in each particular case essentially constituted either military aggressions or outright war crimes, resulted in 20 - 30 million deaths. These figures are not often mentioned, despite the fact that they can be justly compared to over 60 million people killed in the Second World War.

    It should also be remembered that in the U.S. the draft was abolished in 1973. It means that all those who have chosen to enlist since made their conscious free choice. In other words, they have deliberately put themselves in the situation where their job is to follow someone else’s orders when their own as well as other people’s lives are at stake. And after the 2003 invasion of Iraq, that is another blatant military aggression against another sovereign state in pursuit of special interests launched under false pretences, which this time caused more that 1 000 000 civilian deaths, totally ruined the country, and was not even provided with a ghost of cover-up, it became exceedingly clear that those orders could happen to be not just morally dubious but plainly criminal. Since precisely the same elites who were responsible for Iraq are still in power at the moment in America as well as anywhere else in the West, it’s obvious that if you choose to put yourself in such a position today you will inevitably get such orders sooner or later.

    So here is the problem - if someone opts to assume this “OK, boys, let’s get the job done and go home quickly” attitude with no questions asked (while the “job” is to KILL other human beings, including women and children, in order to secure the opportunity to pillage THEIR home), takes money for that, but then accidentally gets shot, does it instantly automatically turn this paid mercenary and, in fact, potential or actual criminal themselves, into a victim, let alone a hero?

    And that’s the question Roger can be asked: if he admits that US foreign policy is one big evil and those “armed conflicts” are simply a euphemism for murdering in pursuit of control, money and power, why does he declare people who offer their hand to actually perpetrate this evil “heroes”? Strictly speaking, it takes two completely different personas to make two statements that incompatible. So it’s not just hypocrisy here. It’s more like schizophrenia.

    And one more point. As WaveProject rightly said this is a very complex and sensitive issue. And it’s hardly possible to say anything concrete in each case without knowing all its circumstances. But this is what can be said. People make mistakes. Very serious ones at times. So serious that they may prove to be fatal for other people or themselves. So, I think, anyone could understand an 18 year old youth with little knowledge and no actual experience of virtually anything, properly brainwashed on top of that by US educational system and mainstream media (both reduced to mere propaganda) making this kind of mistake. Which turns out badly for others. And turns out badly for them. Mr. Stone describes it quite convincingly in his “Born on the Fourth of July”. Besides, if we are talking about someone personally involved, even if this person has made such a tragic mistake they are taking responsibility for it afterwards through tremendous sufferings they have to go through. So I can subscribe to naming them, along with those they have killed while following insane and effectively illegal orders, victims of war, again as it was suggested by WaveProject.

    But who does it take to throw supposedly anti-war shows and at the same time indulge in substituting calling things by their right name in an honest attempt to stop this bloody circus with totally irresponsible verbal juggling which, in fact, contributes into legitimizing and perpetuating it? What kind of person does it take to deliver, in pursuit of one’s own externally related  illusions of popularity or internally related illusions of self-fulfillment – or whatever the fuck else Roger is after out there – another brick into ensuring that the system will remain intact and operative, killing will continue, and fresh meat for the mincer will be provided? Because it’s not even schizophrenia. In the words of another “stand upper” for the cause, it’s “just a meanness”.


  • churchmileschurchmiles November 2013
    I could be wrong as i am not sure if this particular ( good cause ) crossed the pond. But i believe it is charitable organisation that was set up for our ( uk ) armed forces that was returning from active duty with not so much as a thankyou. So in the true English manner we decided to go from one unacceptable extreme ( ignorance ) into another extreme that given the fact that we are always at threat from extreme religous terrorist groups was praised beyond all sensibility. There are always cases when the media do not give a fair representation or opinion of what we truly believe. And this for me is where the problem lies. We are afraid to voice our opinion because we have made a Great Britain that accepts everyone 24/7. Sorry if you cannot understand what i am saying but i was never very good at Grammer.
  • Tulipa November 2013

    One of the aspects I admire artist Roger Waters for is
    his consistency. Those men onstage with him are the incarnation of
    what he has always said about war. In fact, he is one of them.


    I think that the answers are there to
    listen in songs such as Corporal Clegg, Wish You Were Here, The Final
    Cut (esp. The Fletcher Memorial), Perfect Sense etc.


    In short, this time he's conveying his message in a rather physical fashion. 

    :)


  • StrayDogStrayDog November 2013
    Roger does seem to be pretty consistent. First he remains perfectly silent about all neo-colonial massacres started by Western powers - despite being directly related to two of them (all energy is evidently consumed by his uncompromising oppsition to the state of Israel situated many thousands miles away). That is, of course, save some babbling about Bush in 2013 – but that issue was topical like exactly 10 years ago. Then he endorses the war criminal Obama, for re-election. And now Mr. Waters … well, see the last paragraph of my previous post. How does all this stuff correspond with the message contained in his songs mentioned is a piece of mystery to me. But it’s certainly lots of consistency still.

    However, I think, I would prefer some integrity.

  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    ((Tulipa!!)) Well guys why not have your convos during tonight's live stream of this event! Check here for details on where to go and what time, also Roger's facebook page just posted the link:

    http://bobwoodrufffoundation.org/sufh/
  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    i agree with the points of stray dog´s implementations about the
    question of "heroes" and in particiular i feel the same way about that
    "victim" thing.by the way, i didn´t know that the drawt doesn´t exist in
    the us since such a long time. so doesn´t the point of self.responsibilty of
    those guys presented on the website of the bobwoodrufffoundation and the
    members of roger´s "special friends"on stage totally alleviate this exaggeration of compassion?


    concerning roger himself, it must be more than just "illusions of
    popularity or internally related illusions of self-fulfillment".....it´s
    a rather SICK game. sick, because stars like him, loved and celebrated
    by their fans all over their lives, really are in "danger" to turn into
    untreatable, ever being hungry for attention  ,self-loving
    narcists. and some of them even put themselves on the top by electing
    themselves for "president of goodness"(bono vox for instance) or
    declaring themselves a "rebel"in the foodsteps of john lennon( roger).

    game because this is even worse than to be a" real bad guy" like
    politicians or other gangsters because roger misuses the currrent social
    state we are in all over the globe with all the human social very
    serious problems without any chance of a real solution. he plays billiard with the unavoidable human catastrophe , gathering those war
    cripples around himself, declares them as his "friends", laughing into
    the camera that everybody can see that friendly old man with the big
    heart for the small and weak and poor people.

    the louder one´s cry the less there is behind it.
    it´s nothing else than a bubble with nothing in it than two very very degenerated emotions called:

    VANITY and AMBITION!

    the clown in the circus always wears his mask......
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    waveproject: if you feel such strong disdain for Roger, why do you stay on his website? of course you're entitled to your opinions, and Lord knows, i've had my share of days when i got mad at Roger, but i think you are holding some grudge or something still, because stuff like "clown, circus, mask" doesn't sound like what a person who is a fan would say about any artist...all due...xx
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    live stream (i hope i got the place right) in about ten minutes (give or take)...just to update...xxx
  • StrayDogStrayDog November 2013
    Hi Sky,

    I’m sure WaveProject can speak for themselves and will do so in due course. So I apologize in advance for me undutifuly interjecting into your potential exchange. But would you mind clarifying why do you think that this Forum is reserved for “fans” only? And what exactly do you mean by the term? Don’t you think that this is a public platform which, since its Host claims to  have his eyes wide open to all social issues – and they are indeed numerous and critical - can, and probably should, be deemed a proper place for striking up some actually serious discussion about those issues? And the discussion does not necessarily need to be flattering? Especially when the person who makes such claims in reality acts as if his eyes were, in fact, wide shut?

    Don’t you also think that some people can sometimes use strong  expressions simply because they have this strange folly -  to actually think and care? And happen to be appalled by manifestations of behaviour that can be quite justly construed as extreme irresponsibility at best and extreme hypocrisy at worst? Particularly under the current circumstances - when it just mightily contributes into our glorious journey into the “valley of steel”? If I remember correctly, Roger was delivering something on the subject himself like 36 years ago, wasn’t he?

    And, as Columbo would put it: “Just one more thing, ma’am”. We ain’t exactly talking about opinions here. If one is not worthless to the extent of denying the existence of objective reality, then it’s not about one's way of looking at things. It’s about perceiving them in an adequate way. Or, at least, honestly and diligently trying to do so. What “2+2”equals is not a matter of opinion. Unless you are living in “1984”.


  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    here's the way to watch it via a youtube:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/bwfREMIND?feature=watch

    i'd embed it but i can't from there...straydog i'll have to try and discuss that all with you at a later time, i don't think it's polite to bash on a guy on his own website, so sue me...ttyl...xx
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    xxxx
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    here is for the 2013 live stream:



  • Andre November 2013
    Here is a interview with Bob Woodruff by Jon Stewart, made on monday, 4th of november (before the event):

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-november-4-2013/bob-woodruff
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    cool, ty Andre...xxxx
  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    @blueskyhope


    firstly, i´m mot a "fan"at all of anyone or anything and i don´t feel any disdain for roger. but berore i will get back to the origin issue, let´s use this thread for another point of importance in the sense of clarification and in the sense of critical thinking in general which both DID exist once in roger´s work, as stray dog rightly says. so why not to put into question being a "fan" of roger in this case or anywhere else? here is an explanation on wiki:

    A fan, sometimes also called aficionado or supporter,
    is a person who is enthusiastically devoted to something, such as a
    band, a sports team or entertainer. Collectively, fans of a particular
    thing or person constitute its fanbase or fandom. They may show their enthusiasm by being members of a fan club, holding fan conventions, creating fanzines, writing fan mail, or by promoting the object of their interest and attention.

    what does make a person like roger so different to others, to his fans in this case, to the "normal people"? possibly you would say his captivity to write songs, to perform them, to be the author of the former band pink floyd and so on.and you also might say he´s an extraordinair personality, his precence on stage, his way to move and to talk, all this together seems result into a person different from the masses, a chosen species of mystery or even into something like a MYTH.

    but what is fact instead? unseen from any born captivities don´t you all "fans " realize that musicians as professionals for instance also become that genius and famous because they do nothing else all the day long instead of working in a job 8 hours a day? that they had supporters from the start of their carreer by their parents, friends?and that out of these and more reasons they had time and money enough to come to the lucky circumstances to meet the right business people who looked the right contacts , doing this by their own interests of earning a high percent bigger part of money than the artist himself? being a fan does not mean to be not realistic d not critical,and in the case of roger it´s even more important to figure out the real background in particiular of his action of the last two years because of the simple fact that

    HE HIMSELF CaLLES HIMSELF A CRITICAL HUMAN BEING

    it´s easy to sit back and enyoy the show of the wall . and it´s easy to celebrate again and again his impressing seeming activities. and in some way it´s understandable just to be weak and stay in slumber.

    but what is with that uncomfortable thing disturbing your sweet dreams:

    THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH ?

    i fear just being a fan in this case does not make sense. and finally it doesn´t make sense for roger as well.....in some rather particiular way of course....

  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    in fact , it´s not about any personal opinions here as stray dog correctly mentioned. it´s time to start to think critically about this serious thing:vanity and ambition in a very degeneratet way, that´s what roger drives
    to take part at this event. the same is to the wall tour. it´s just
    another sick need and it´s a human weakness.

    you
    want to leave something behind in this world. you want to built up a
    monument of your greedy ego because you have been used to overdimensional
    attention all your life.wherever you go, you enjoy an admiration and respect and if you have that weakness mentioned upstairs, your brain is focussed on new stragedies to get more of it.

    instead of making a statement with the risk of getting unpopulair you built up a WALL of safety.
  • CorneliusCornelius November 2013
    Roger is a fool sometimes, he should leave this kind of thing to ''ol' springo''
  • SkyBlueHopeSkyBlueHope November 2013
    well listen, if it's ok with the website/moderator(s) then who am i to say a thing....xxx really i don't mind a long post there's not much going else on in here, but usually when i'm at my desktop, which is the only time now i can come to forums anymore, (don't have same smart phone anymore) and so by the time i do get here, my head's spinning around trying to catch up on a whole lot at once, so i'm not ignoring you i just haven't had time yet to sit down and go over this point by point with you, which you all like and seem to do so well.

    in the meantime, just thought i'd post that Roger and the wounded warriors were on cbs sunday this morning, sorry it was only about a five minute spot, give or take...or i would've tried to announce it sooner. i was lucky i just happened to catch a retweet and tuned to the channel in time for it...xxx
  • waveprojectwaveproject November 2013
    so it seems there is any more interest in looking behind the facade of this special old rock star but a crowd of non- considering fans instead without any ability of critical thinking ( which is rather helpful for the real intentions of the provider of this web site).so i finish with a short statement:

    roger´s participation on the gig mentioned  makes really sense in one point: it keeps that whole fucking circus moving on.
    you people here don´t need a real personality.
    you peole here need that clown whose mask is in deed a very special one .so take him.
  • churchmileschurchmiles November 2013
    Nice Grammer but unfortunately your comment and point was completely wasted on me. Dont mean to be picky but i cannot actually read what you have wrote. Maybe try to start a sentence at the beginning at not well into your dialogue. 
  • StrayDogStrayDog December 2013
    I don’t think that I quite agree with WaveProject here. Roger is hardly just seeking attention. I don’t think that he sits at home desperately trying to figure out another way to get some.  Obviously in HIS universe he actually BELIEVES that he is doing the good thing.

    But the truth is that it’s not an excuse. Roger is a grown-up, seemingly sane person. And as such he’d have to encircle oneself with very formidable walls to be able to comfortably ignore everything that could contradict his convenient way of perceiving things. And thus maintain this kind of illusion. But ain’t we supposed to tear all of those down?

    However, this stuff might be not so evident and simple. I mean, let’s be honest too. What are the chances of getting the system in its entirety ever changed? Somewhere near absolute zero. So, what real options does one have? One who cares? They can either choose to try to do at least something for some concrete people here and now or just do nothing (trying to change the system would equal doing nothing since nothing of the sort will most likely ever happen). But why to distort things along the way? Because within this system one has to lie. Like if someone collects money for heroes, it can work out. But how much would be collected if it was for half-victims, half-criminals themselves?

    But if we are not talking in general, but specifically about Roger ... Is he one of those who really care then? Frankly, I don’t know. Considering other manifestations of Roger's social activities (or rather total absence of any on so many crusial occasions), I doubt that. Besides, there is one more aspect to these charity affairs. For example, Bob Woodruff‘s Foundation has raised about 20 million overall. It’s about 1/10th of Mr. Waters’ net worth. If he is truly concerned about these people to the extent he claims, why not to spend one’s own money? Instead of that Roger appeals to someone else - people who live from paycheck to paycheck included - and then poses as a charitable person basically at their expense. We do not really hear about Mrs. X or Mr. Y who make donations. We hear about the great Roger. Not to mention the fact that in this case one wouldn't have to distort anything or lie at all. And contribute into legitimizing the system through that. Which would actually be a great thing. 
       

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